Baldwin & Co. Ideas Explored

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:18
Speaker 1
Well, Keisha, I've been trying to text you or texting you to while you were in mid-air, so I hope you've had a chance to catch your breath because you just arrived in New Orleans. This is your first time here?

00:00:15:20 - 00:00:18:16
Speaker 2
No, not the first time. But it's wonderful to be back.

00:00:18:24 - 00:00:55:08
Speaker 1
Good, good. And I do understand that you have been to the research center before, and, it was very, very enlightening. To read about your research at the Amistad. So we will talk about your research and what you discovered within the stacks and files of our collections. So, Henry Louis Gates says that you are shedding light on the overlooked black women who advance the cause of human rights at home and abroad.

00:00:55:11 - 00:01:02:08
Speaker 1
So I guess that's the basic. Those are the basic principles of why you wrote this book.

00:01:02:10 - 00:01:24:01
Speaker 2
Yes, yes. I should start by perhaps explaining a bit of the, the origin story, if you will. I was in the process of finishing up my book on Fannie Lou Hamer until I am free. And while I was writing that book, I started writing this book. And I tend to work on multiple projects at once.

00:01:24:01 - 00:01:49:23
Speaker 2
But one of the reasons why I quickly transitioned to this project is because there were a number of questions I was asking in until I'm free that, I knew I needed another book to answer fully. At the core of, Hamer's book. The book about Hamer was my attempt to show how her ideas are relevant in the contempt in the contemporary moment.

00:01:49:23 - 00:02:17:06
Speaker 2
But also I wanted to, show how she has shaped national and to an extent, global politics. And there's a chapter in there in which I talk about Hamer, as a human rights activist, as a global thinker, as someone who was very much thinking about what was taking place in other parts of the globe and how that might inform the struggle for expanded black rights in the context of the United States.

00:02:17:13 - 00:02:56:10
Speaker 2
That's an aspect of Hamer story that we don't often pay attention to. And I knew that it would be important to to center that particular aspect of the story. But but at the end of the day, I knew that Hamer was really just one of so many women who had a similar approach. Women who didn't just think about the relationship between, black Americans and the federal government, which is to say that they weren't simply advocating for rights that might be, for example, you know, guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution that they were thinking beyond, they were thinking beyond U.S. borders.

00:02:56:10 - 00:03:21:23
Speaker 2
They were thinking about the kinds of rights that are essentially God given rights, that are divinely inspired protections, that ultimately all of us should have simply because we are human. And so that led me to, really a quest to find more of these stories and to and to write this sweeping history of black women's engagement in human rights advocacy.

00:03:21:25 - 00:03:33:03
Speaker 2
I actually don't talk about Hamer in the book, intentionally because I wanted, to to bring in an array of new voices, into the narrative. And I'm sure we'll talk about some of them tonight.

00:03:33:06 - 00:04:00:17
Speaker 1
And I appreciate that, because so many of us, we know who Fannie Lou Hamer was. We know Rosa Parks, you know, they are iconic women that we learn about Harriet Tubman. We know their stories. But I really, really appreciate that you introduce us to so many other women whose stories have never been told. And I will tell you, without fear.

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:37:09
Speaker 1
I understand that, and I understand that we live in days now. Every day. How many of us wake up without fear, without enough fear to actually take action and do something? And so the women that you're going to hear us discuss tonight, they were definitely fearless. You teach africana studies at Brown University. Can you tell us what is Africana studies?

00:04:37:12 - 00:05:03:19
Speaker 2
Well, there's so many ways to talk about or describe africana studies, but I think, in the broadest sense, it's really the study of black people. And I will say the focus on africana is intentional to signal that we're not only interested in the black experience or black history or black culture within the context of the United States, but we're thinking about black people everywhere.

00:05:03:20 - 00:05:37:05
Speaker 2
It is very much a diasporic, narrative, and it's very much a diasporic kind of research. And, I think much of the work that we do is very much, thinking through, comparative analysis, what's happening in the US compared to what's happening in the Caribbean, Latin America, how, all of these communities are, yes, distinct, but but also linked in terms of the history, and, and and also thinking through how people forge alliances across borders and so on.

00:05:37:05 - 00:06:10:23
Speaker 2
So africana studies certainly, as, as a discipline brings together an array of different fields. So it's it's truly interdisciplinary. And I'm a historian by training, but but I do I simply could not do the work that I do. If I didn't, consult the work that sociologists are producing or political scientists, as just examples and so Africana studies really provides, I think, a powerful space in which to do interdisciplinary creative work that draws on multiple methods.

00:06:10:25 - 00:06:19:22
Speaker 2
And thinks, and really grapples with this notion of global identity. Moving beyond the focus of the nation.

00:06:19:24 - 00:06:45:20
Speaker 1
Yes, yes. So we all know what black history is. We know what Black Studies is. So thank you for putting that into perspective. You now live in Providence, Rhode Island, and I want to start with just a little bit more of an introduction about you before we get to the women in your book. You live in Providence, Rhode Island right now, but where was Keesha Nunn?

00:06:45:23 - 00:07:08:01
Speaker 2
So I was born in the Caribbean. I was born in Grenada. And, but I grew up mostly in Brooklyn, New York, and that's actually, I think, so significant to mention because of course, I it would only be years later where I would realize all of that matters. But I think my upbringing helped to lead me to the kind of research that I'm doing.

00:07:08:03 - 00:07:31:16
Speaker 2
The opportunity to live in two different countries. And, part of that meant constantly moving back and forth. My childhood is one to which I was, visiting family in Grenada and then coming back to the US, like much much of my schooling was, in, in Brooklyn, New York, but I had to always think about a transnational kind of history.

00:07:31:16 - 00:07:53:17
Speaker 2
I always had to think about blackness, not solely, within the context of, the nation, but also, grapple with blackness globally. I had to to grapple with my own identity as someone who first, said, well, I'm Afro-Caribbean, I'm not African-American. To someone who then said, well, how ridiculous to to draw these distinctions, I am black.

00:07:53:17 - 00:08:31:03
Speaker 2
And so that's it. That's all that matters. So, so I think my, my upbringing really, shaped my certainly my my, my my view of the world. And, it's not surprising, I think, that I would find myself in a place where I ended up, attending Binghamton University, sitting in classes, interested in global black social movements, and thinking about the way that I could make a difference by focusing primarily on black women's ideas and activism, which was something that I didn't see fully represented in my courses.

00:08:31:06 - 00:08:51:28
Speaker 2
As much as I was learning a lot about black social, black social movements, women were not prominently featured, in these courses, and I wanted to change that. So I'm thrilled now to be able to to write books that I can assign, which is fascinating and on courses. Right. On similar topics. So it truly has been a journey.

00:08:51:28 - 00:09:04:17
Speaker 2
But I will also quickly say that I did not intend to become a historian, but fell in love with history and credit my professors for really mentoring me, encouraging me, and telling me that I could do this work.

00:09:04:20 - 00:09:32:22
Speaker 1
And no, you don't. You didn't just write a book or two. You are the author of eight books. So I want to say congratulations and thank you. Thank you for that upbringing that, has given you a global perspective on who we are as black women in the diaspora. Without fear. Black women and the making of human rights.

00:09:32:25 - 00:09:38:24
Speaker 1
When or how when was this book actually published? Is it new? Hot off the press?

00:09:38:27 - 00:10:00:24
Speaker 2
Yes, just a few weeks ago. But I will say that I've been working on it. I started writing in earnest, in 2020, but the reality is that I ended up drawing on material that I have been collecting for more than ten years. So, in some ways it's it feels new. But in in other ways, I've been sitting with many of these women for quite some time.

00:10:01:01 - 00:10:21:03
Speaker 2
As you know, I don't have to tell you the process of doing research. It's so difficult. And for some of the women who are not as well known, I had to put the pieces together. And sometimes I would find some information, but but also recognize gaps in, the history. And it would take time to fill those gaps.

00:10:21:03 - 00:10:47:23
Speaker 2
So I'm thankful that I was able to pull it all together. And, it's and I have to say credit to, to you, and the work that you do at Amistad because, many years ago, I was actually an assistant professor at the time someone contacted me from the Amistad Research Center and said, oh, we have a collection where we're working on, sort of organizing and processing.

00:10:47:23 - 00:11:09:28
Speaker 2
And that's the first time I heard the name Margaret Cartwright. And I thought, who is this person? But but it caught my attention because they said, well, you know, she was a columnist for the Pittsburgh Courier, and at the time I was a professor at the University of Pittsburgh. So that that certainly caught my attention. I hoped then that I would be able to return to her, and thankfully, I have.

00:11:10:01 - 00:11:34:25
Speaker 1
And we'll get to her before the end of this conversation. So any introduction and I love, in this introduction, there is the end of a quote without fear and hesitancy. Can you tell us who is that quote from and what is meant without fear and hesitancy?

00:11:34:28 - 00:12:04:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this comes from a quote, from the African-American educator, which I know everyone knows. And this is Mary McLeod Bethune. This is a quote that she, shared in 1944. She was leading a workshop, speaking to black women, essentially. And part of what she was doing was she was talking to them about the importance of, transnational political, organizing.

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:27:02
Speaker 2
And she was telling them that it was important for them to, be committed to this work. It's important for them to, connect with women across the globe, women from different backgrounds and, different races to advocate for human rights. And she says, we can do this work, and we must do it without fear and hesitancy.

00:12:27:05 - 00:12:51:28
Speaker 2
Of course, is 1944. So think about the context of World War two, as just one example for why this moment would, would, would be one in which many would be fearful, I think to she was also, speaking to the fact that she knew the kind of work that black women were doing at the time. This is this was dangerous work as it is today.

00:12:52:00 - 00:13:26:26
Speaker 2
But for in the 1940s, for black women to be at the center of black, political, organizing was so significant. We're talking about decades before black women have full access to the vote. Right. And so what does it mean to not have access to the formal political process? What does it mean to be shut out of these traditional spaces, these traditional halls of power, and yet, set out to effect change, and to be involved in politics, even if it's quote unquote informal politics.

00:13:26:26 - 00:13:48:05
Speaker 2
And so the, the quote is, quite frankly, I was struggling, spent many, many weeks back and forth with, the marketing team, about the title because we just couldn't figure it out. But this quote just truly, I think, encapsulates everything that I wanted to say. And I would also emphasize that it's perfect for this moment.

00:13:48:05 - 00:14:05:28
Speaker 2
I think if you don't even read the book, just looking at that title, signals a message that I, that I hope, we will hold on to, especially in this moment, that we have to be committed to this work. And yes, there's a lot to to be afraid of, but at the same time, we can't let that dictate our actions.

00:14:05:28 - 00:14:08:12
Speaker 2
So we have to do it without fear.

00:14:08:14 - 00:14:35:07
Speaker 1
At the Amistad, we have two original diaries of Mary as laws at home. One of them is now currently on exhibit at the Smithsonian. So we've been calling the curators, our colleagues up at the Smithsonian almost every week to say, where is it? Like, where is it? When is it coming back? If it will be there at the Smithsonian until, the end of next year.

00:14:35:10 - 00:14:59:15
Speaker 1
And so I know it will be among my words. It will be there. And, we look forward. But but the other diary that we have about her European travels. Yes. Anybody here can come to the Amistad and spend some time with, Mary McLeod. But there was personal diary. What? What is human? Right. So. And, you know.

00:14:59:18 - 00:15:15:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let's know what civil rights is. And you mentioned global rights, right? So can you tell us, what is the difference between human rights and global rights?

00:15:15:07 - 00:15:40:13
Speaker 2
Well, I perhaps I'll start by, explaining it more. So civil and human, simply because a lot of the work that I have done in this book comes out of a phrase or a quote from Fannie Lou Hamer in which she says, I'm no longer fighting for equal rights, I'm fighting for human rights. Or put another way, sometimes she would say, I'm no longer fighting for civil rights.

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:05:00
Speaker 2
I'm I'm fighting for human rights. And part of the reason that she said this was that she had come to a place where she realized, and this is interesting because Fannie Lou Hamer is someone who, of course, as I talk about it and until I am free, constantly quoted the U.S. Constitution, she was very interested, you know, the Constitution itself.

00:16:05:07 - 00:16:46:20
Speaker 2
She was also interested in the reconstruction amendments. So, I there are so many speeches that she gives in which she's referencing the reconstruction amendments. And, and I find that quite fascinating. But but part of this statement of I'm no longer fighting for civil or I'm no longer fighting for equal, I'm fighting for human was, I think, a recognition for her that that the demands that she was making and certainly the demands of the black people were making were much greater, much higher, if you will, than a simple claim that, African-Americans should be treated simply, you know, as citizens based on the promises of the Constitution.

00:16:46:22 - 00:17:09:13
Speaker 2
So, so to shift the analysis to human rights, is to say that it doesn't really matter necessarily what the Constitution says or doesn't say, and it doesn't even matter what people think about, African Americans place in U.S. society, whether you see them as citizens or you don't see them as citizens, what you need to do is you need to see them as human.

00:17:09:16 - 00:17:37:07
Speaker 2
And so to the question of human rights, there are three core tenets that I emphasize in the book, because, as we all know, human rights means different things to different people at different moments. And of course, I spent years going back and forth with this, but but I ultimately settled on three things, relying heavily on, a fellow historian, by the name of Lynn Lynn Hunt, who's written this book, a remarkable book, called Inventing Human Rights.

00:17:37:07 - 00:18:13:19
Speaker 2
And there are three core principles that she emphasizes that I see as threads through these women's, ideas and activism. The first is, is an idea that, of course, we all understand universality, the, the the idea that there are certain God-Given protections, that are granted to all people, regardless of where they reside. So therefore, it's not a question of what a what a government promises its citizens or, you know, what, what appeals you can make because you were born in a particular place or might have gone through a process of citizenship.

00:18:13:22 - 00:18:39:26
Speaker 2
That's important for many reasons, but that's not the argument. So universality is one core principle. The second is equality, that there are certain protections that apply equally regardless of race, regardless of gender, regardless of class. And then the I think then the third is natural rights, which is that these are protections that, are simply a guaranteed to us on the basis of our humanity because we are human.

00:18:39:26 - 00:19:17:18
Speaker 2
So, so what I did in the, in the book was essentially look closely at the historical record. To find evidence of how black women were thinking through these core ideals. And what I found is that they've been doing so for a very long time. I start the book with R.B. Wells, and then I step back to talk about Maria Stuart, to show that even either B Wells in the 19th century or late 19th century, as she's talking about lynching, we we often focus on IDB Wells as the anti-lynching crusader, or we talk about her contributions to U.S. history.

00:19:17:20 - 00:19:48:29
Speaker 2
That's important, to be sure, but one of the things that I do in the book is focus on how I, to B Wells, draws a connection between lynching and human rights abuses that are happening all over the globe. And that's an aspect, I think, of her, her vision that we don't often pay attention to but need to, and in doing so, we get to see how she is a really a core thinker in human rights history, even though, quite frankly, she has been, I think, largely erased in these histories.

00:19:49:02 - 00:20:14:05
Speaker 2
And so, so, so to answer the question and that's kind of circle back, all of that I've pointed out what I show is that how women push these core ideals at the grassroots level, and at times they are also pushing these ideas at the global level. So so it's truly the interplay of the local, the national and the global.

00:20:14:05 - 00:20:25:20
Speaker 2
And you see all three, really through the book. And, and so it is effectively a human rights history from below that that pushes to the top.

00:20:25:22 - 00:21:10:13
Speaker 1
And the first woman who stood out, to me in your book was my sister soldier. I'd be well, yeah. Okay. I know that the strength that I get as a black woman in America, and the work that I do comes from the fearlessness and the courage of Ida B Wells. You feature her in chapter one, and one of the things that you say about women, like, I'd be, is women found ways to promote a human rights agenda through pragmatic collaborations and partnerships.

00:21:10:15 - 00:21:16:05
Speaker 1
Tell us more about this that is referenced in your book.

00:21:16:07 - 00:21:44:17
Speaker 2
Yes. So this comes up in so many ways throughout the book. I'll give one example which simply because we've, I've said a little bit about RB. Well, so, so another example, to this question of partnerships and pragmatic and strategic alliances, we see this through the life and activism of madam C.J. Walker. And madam C.J. Walker is another person who is very well known.

00:21:44:19 - 00:22:12:17
Speaker 2
But the way we talk about her, I think, is limited insofar as we focus on her here company, we focus on her entrepreneurship, philanthropy, all of that is important. But we don't spend enough time, on her internationalism, on her global activism, on the way that she thought critically about, those kinds of alliances. So to a practical example, I talk about madam C.J. Walker traveling to Haiti in 1913.

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:38:16
Speaker 2
Much of the scholarship focuses on the fact that she's traveling to Haiti, as she is traveling to other parts of the Caribbean and Latin America and Central America simply to explore new markets for her business. And that's the way it's it's phrased. And to be clear, she is doing that, but she's doing more than that. One of the things that she does, is when she's making these trips, she's meeting with officials, she's meeting with leaders.

00:22:38:16 - 00:23:03:24
Speaker 2
So in Haiti, she has a number of meetings with Haitian politicians. She's meeting with the Haitian elites, but she's also visiting Haitian prisons. She's spending time with political prisoners, people who have been arrested simply because they have said the truth. The truth about imperialism, the truth about racism. Right? I mean, so many connections to the current moment.

00:23:03:26 - 00:23:34:27
Speaker 2
And she tries to raise international attention to that. She writes about it, she talks about it, and and that's just one example of someone recognizing the significance of the, the sort of strategic partnership for her, the work that she's doing in the US context is very much connected to thinking about what's happening globally. And then I talk about her in 1919, how she partners with others, individuals like, Marcus Garvey.

00:23:35:00 - 00:24:08:28
Speaker 2
We know Marcus Garvey of the Universal Negro Improvement Association, also a Philip Randolph. Just as two examples. And she does this with the context of the International League for Darker Peoples, which is an organization that she helped establish in 1919. I'll, I'll just quickly say what she does in this organization. And she not only supports financially, but she helps to, orchestrate an important meeting that takes place with Japanese delegates who are headed to the 1919, Paris Peace Conference.

00:24:08:28 - 00:24:46:15
Speaker 2
And the whole purpose of it is to push a racial equality clause, essentially. And so she attempts as a, as do her colleagues, attempt to use the Japanese delegates as proxy, if you will, to speak on behalf of not solely African Americans, but other people of color. And that's just these are just two examples of this notion of how these women are forging strategic partnerships in order to advocate for human rights, and how they do so using all of these creative methods at a moment where they don't have a seat at the table.

00:24:46:15 - 00:24:57:17
Speaker 2
Right. We talk about this concept of the seat at the table. A lot of these are not even allowed in the room, let alone having a seat at the table. But it doesn't stop them from doing this work. And it's truly a powerful story.

00:24:57:19 - 00:25:36:05
Speaker 1
And I think about the, the fearlessness of madam C.J. Walker in these other women, you know, sometimes these days, lately, I think about traveling by myself at night just on I-10 between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. You know, I don't know how many of you as as women travel across the country going to Houston, Atlanta, making that drive by yourself these days, you have to be what we say, Prada, because you have to think about what happens if I have a flat tire?

00:25:36:07 - 00:26:01:04
Speaker 1
Yes, I might have myself a phone where I can call my family to say this is where I am. But if you come up missing, you know, what good is that if your phone is thrown into the swamp? Madam C.J. Walker was traveling all through the Caribbean, through Guam. Not so much worried about her down there because she's with her people.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:31:29
Speaker 1
But she would drive from Vicksburg to Denver, in 1919. So imagine what that car is like with no phone. Imagine what the highways were like. And, you know, and I think about, you know, who was she traveling with? More than likely with a black, maybe male driver. But they're traveling on dark roads at night across country so that she could deliver her message.

00:26:31:29 - 00:26:41:16
Speaker 1
And I want to thank you because I was not aware and had not heard of the I l dp. Can you repeat what that stands for.

00:26:41:19 - 00:27:07:13
Speaker 2
The International League for Darker Peoples? It was a short lived organization, in 1919, but I actually talk about it in the book as a crucial space for human rights organizing, even though, the scholarship does not present it as such. But but I do make a case for that. And we see how it creates opportunity for black women, to be at the center of these conversations.

00:27:07:13 - 00:27:34:02
Speaker 2
And I think, as I've been speaking, hopefully I'm making clear the way that people are able to affect change from below. It just it it truly is a remarkable story. And LDP is an example of human rights advocacy happening in a space that's not even designated a human rights organization per se, but doing that decades before the exhibition of the United Nations.

00:27:34:04 - 00:27:38:14
Speaker 2
And, so this is an important history for sure.

00:27:38:17 - 00:28:01:07
Speaker 1
In this book, you go back and forth to, to the 19th century. Was it a challenge to find documents and records that tell us these stories, and then maybe that will lead into Margaret Cartwright, her story and what you found at the Amistad.

00:28:01:09 - 00:28:28:11
Speaker 2
Yes. It was certainly difficult. I think it's always difficult, writing these histories. I think if someone ever says that they wrote a, a book about black women's history and it was easy, you should really be worried that they truly worried because it's simply, there's so many things that you have to work through. On the one hand, the sources are limited, to be sure, but but then there are times that there is an abundance, right?

00:28:28:12 - 00:28:53:09
Speaker 2
You might find an abundance of sources, but it still means you have to work through them carefully. And we talk about kind of reading against the bias grain. These are things that, number of scholars, grapple with. Saidiya Hartman thinking about herself once I it's just to that quickly come to mind. But all of that is to say, it's a challenge when you have a lot and it's a challenge when you don't have enough.

00:28:53:11 - 00:29:24:10
Speaker 2
So. So what I had to do was, really pull together parts and pieces, archival material or, I find always helpful. But of course, they come with limitations. And we know many of them, and and pair whatever I could find with historical newspapers. As an example, I use a lot of census records to be able to piece together these women's lives, to figure out where they were born, where they traveled to, where they lived, who they were in community with, etc..

00:29:24:12 - 00:29:42:28
Speaker 2
So a lot of of piecing and to the point of human rights, I remember, just as I was writing the book and talking to people about it, some people would say, well, it's interesting that you're writing about human rights and you're starting so early because people weren't saying the term until, you know, maybe the 40s or it doesn't really take a hold until the 70s.

00:29:43:01 - 00:30:04:04
Speaker 2
And I and I chuckle because what they were thinking, they were thinking so concretely that there were like human rights. Right. And I'm just and I had to say, no, I didn't go through the newspapers in the 19th century looking for human rights. What I did was I looked for the, the core, the core tenets, right? That I said the values, the principles, because what are human rights?

00:30:04:04 - 00:30:24:13
Speaker 2
And once I could name it, once I could identify it, then I, then I could say, there is my stool. We're talking about human rights. Even if she's not using the term, she's talking about it. And, and so, that was part of the process of doing the research is moving beyond the limited framework of search words for human rights.

00:30:24:16 - 00:30:53:19
Speaker 2
And really thinking expansively to figure out what these women are saying, what are what are the demands, and how could I pull this into the narrative? And then, of course, as you get to the later years, women do talk about the human rights. Of course, you know, as we move forward in the story. So to to Margaret Cartwright, I'll, I'll talk about her, as an example of someone who I mentioned earlier that many of these women were not even allowed into the room, so to speak.

00:30:53:21 - 00:31:16:23
Speaker 2
Margaret Cartwright in 1958 attends the All African People's conference in Accra, Ghana. And I open the chapter, the fifth chapter with this scene. I start there because this is a gathering the historians spend a lot of time talking about, and they're talking about it through the lens of, African leaders challenging colonialism. Kwame Nkrumah is there.

00:31:16:23 - 00:31:57:12
Speaker 2
He's one of the, the key figures. He's collaborating with all of these, other leaders throughout the diaspora, too. And Margaret Cartwright is at the gathering. She's not involved in the conversation. She's not on the program, so to speak. She doesn't have an opportunity to, to share her thoughts, but she's listening and she's taking notes. And then she goes back to the United States and writes a series of columns in which she's grappling with the significance of this gathering for black Americans, for the struggle, on on national on the, you know, on the national level, which is to say that she goes from being someone who's completely invisible in the narrative

00:31:57:17 - 00:32:28:23
Speaker 2
to someone who then is, in fact, at the center of the conversations around human rights. And, and of course, linked to, colonialism and anti-colonial movements. So, so she is just an extraordinary figure, and I and I, of course, we've been talking about the fact that her papers are on the side, which has opened up a space for researchers to be able to grapple with the significance of this woman, who was a professor, a column this, correspondent for the UN.

00:32:28:24 - 00:32:42:26
Speaker 2
Just a remarkable, individual. She attends the 1955 Van Dawn conference. She's everywhere. She's talking to everyone. And yet most people don't know her name. And I argue that she's such a vital voice in this history.

00:32:42:28 - 00:33:01:10
Speaker 1
And again, you think about these women, you know, we all go to the airport now and we complain about TSA, and, you know, the seats are small. And, you know, I can just imagine being a black woman to where they flying or where they going by ocean liner. Do, do they talk much about their international travels?

00:33:01:13 - 00:33:25:11
Speaker 2
They do. So, of course. Because the book covers this long history, we're able to, see a glimpse into multiple forms of travel. And so in the earlier chapters, a lot of discussion of, traveling, by ship, long periods of time, sometimes 2 to 3 weeks, right, to go from point A to point B and, and women do talk about that experience.

00:33:25:13 - 00:33:51:12
Speaker 2
The people they meet, the conversations they have, both good and bad. And then, of course, the complexities of, flying later. Mia Bay has written a great book on this called Traveling Black, which really captures, I think, the nuances of, black travel in this long history. So I'll recommend that. But but yes, there's a lot of complexity bound up in that.

00:33:51:12 - 00:34:34:08
Speaker 2
And and I and to Margaret Cartwright, she she's a professor. Yes. And and to an extent, has access to resources that many other women don't. But she still has to apply for funding to make many of these trips. So it's not that, you know, these are expensive trips. Sometimes she's able to get support. Sometimes, you know, the Pittsburgh Courier will help with expenses sometimes for the organization and use, but but the, the, the very act of traveling, is its own challenge, right, for these women as they attempt to forge transnational alliances and as they attempt to bring greater awareness to global developments, throughout in the her case, mostly the

00:34:34:08 - 00:34:37:24
Speaker 2
1950s and 1960s.

00:34:37:26 - 00:34:44:15
Speaker 1
The other first one of the other women that you talk about, is it Amanda Berry Smith?

00:34:44:18 - 00:34:48:12
Speaker 2
Yes. The, missionary in the 19th century.

00:34:48:12 - 00:35:20:01
Speaker 1
And so her core belief, she had a core belief in black, self-sufficient seeing. Right. And a quote from her is or was, if no one will promote or respect us, let us promote and respect ourselves. Thank you for including her. Thank you for including that quote. What was her greatest achievement?

00:35:20:03 - 00:35:53:27
Speaker 2
Well, I think perhaps her greatest achievement was, quite frankly, the ability to break free from all of the expectations that were placed on black women. She was traveling and speaking, she was a missionary. So she was preaching at a time where most, religious institutions didn't even acknowledge, women in these roles, let alone black women in these roles.

00:35:53:29 - 00:36:19:22
Speaker 2
And so she had to push against, the patriarchal structure of these institutions, in order to assert her voice. And she did. So, there's a lot that can be said about missionary work and, there's complexity there that I grapple with. But, but, but what is powerful is how she draws inspiration from the Bible in order to make an argument for human rights.

00:36:19:22 - 00:36:43:08
Speaker 2
And her argument is very similar to the argument that Maria Stewart makes, in Boston in, in the 1830s. So I think her greatest contribution is, quite frankly, breaking free from all of the expectations and saying, I won't be limited to home and family, even if that's what society says I should be doing. I won't be told I can preach or I can't, deliver the word of God.

00:36:43:08 - 00:36:57:07
Speaker 2
I will do so because I believe I'm called to do so. And if you don't like it, you don't like it. But I will still do it. And then to be able to travel throughout the globe, in this moment, it's quite remarkable for a black woman. So I think she defied the odds.

00:36:57:10 - 00:37:19:12
Speaker 1
And I think we may have one more time for one more. Who would you compare to? Maria Stewart of the 1830s? Who would you compare her work with as a fearless woman today? And just tell everyone who Maria Stewart was.

00:37:19:14 - 00:37:46:13
Speaker 2
Some, samurai Stewart, was, an early abolitionist and feminist. And in fact, historians point out that she was the first to speak to mixed race audiences in a very in a public setting and also, to both men and women. That's, again, very significant for the 1830s, a time where slavery was still very much, alive and well, right in, in the southern region of the United States.

00:37:46:13 - 00:38:10:00
Speaker 2
And from Boston, Maria Stewart was talking about bringing an end to slavery, talking about the importance of recognizing black people as human. So, so a very vital voice, in general for U.S. history, for women's history, for the abolitionist movement and so on. So who would I compare her to? Wow. Where to begin? So many people.

00:38:10:03 - 00:38:32:24
Speaker 2
Well, I would say, the book goes all the way up to the 2000s. And I do so intentionally because I want people to think about how women in the contemporary moment, are really building upon these traditions. And in the last chapter, I talk about Katie Diallo, who's the mother of Amadou Diallo. That name, I hope ring rings a bell.

00:38:32:27 - 00:38:56:03
Speaker 2
Unfortunately, in 1999, I mentioned earlier being from Brooklyn. And so just kind of, that has always been seared on my mind that I was a very young, but but certainly knew the name, and Katie Diallo really did not plan to be involved in politics or human rights advocacy, but had to endure such a painful experience of losing her son.

00:38:56:03 - 00:39:22:22
Speaker 2
And that opened up, a door, I think an opportunity for her to turn her grief into political action. And there's a way in which when she's talking about, the importance of seeing state sanctioned violence or police brutality as a human rights abuse and recognizing that part of these right, God given protections is the right to to be able to stand outside the vestibule of your apartment at midnight and not be shot at 41 times.

00:39:22:22 - 00:39:48:03
Speaker 2
Right. And so, her advocacy in this moment, I think, and the way she talks about human rights resonates. I mean, it just it echoes in so many ways. You can just hear the the echoes of Maria Stewart so many years earlier. And so, I think there are so many women, but I just mention her as an example of how these women's legacies continue to live on.

00:39:48:06 - 00:40:09:18
Speaker 1
So many women in this book, so many women in this book. And I hope those of you who read it will also become fearless in the work that you might do or are doing. In the area of social change today. And I want to say thank you so much for writing this book and the other books that you have written.

00:40:09:20 - 00:40:29:17
Speaker 1
And continue, continue to teach, continue to write, and we'll give I'll give everyone or anyone an opportunity to ask questions. If you have questions.

00:40:29:19 - 00:40:32:24
Speaker 1
Any questions? Yes, ma'am.

00:40:32:27 - 00:41:04:06
Speaker 3
I had a quick yeah, quick talk a bit more about the relationship between, sort of black organizations of the US and internationalism. I think a lot about the connection between, Goodhart and so, immigrants, if you will, in the different, say, like Detroit, like folks who are, like, migrating the South to the north.

00:41:04:08 - 00:41:28:13
Speaker 3
But how about, you know, we try this interesting, like, big global, like our views are also of, different movements. But can you talk a bit more about the way in which, like, these institutions are like, why international is also important in connecting, what was happening, the struggles that was happening. And these different in the African diaspora.

00:41:28:16 - 00:41:33:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. Why the why that was so important for what was happening to us.

00:41:33:22 - 00:42:04:03
Speaker 2
Thank you for that question. And in fact, I think this is one of the reasons why I felt compelled to write the book because, in part what it does is, is that it explains why these women and, and certainly, so many others were very intentional about forging transnational alliances and solidarities. And part of it was because they were thinking about the struggle for human rights.

00:42:04:03 - 00:42:26:10
Speaker 2
Right. And so it just in framing it that way, it helps to explain the impulse to reach out, because now it's not just about necessarily how do we organize within the context of the United States, right. You know, to pressure the U.S government to protect black citizens and to be sure that is happening? But but it's now more than that.

00:42:26:10 - 00:42:54:03
Speaker 2
It's how do we, really help the United States recognize that they are not even living up to expectations that defy U.S. borders, that there is a sort of global understanding of, how to treat humans. And and the U.S is failing while pretending to be a beacon of democracy and freedom, by the way. Right. So so I think just talking about that framework helps explain the impulse.

00:42:54:06 - 00:43:17:20
Speaker 2
The other thing that I'll say too, is that, you know, I mentioned my, my, my own personal journey earlier. And I think a lot of times we forget that, for so many of, the activists who are involved in these movements on US soil, they had diverse backgrounds similar to myself. Right. So you think about someone like Stokely Carmichael from Barbados, right?

00:43:17:20 - 00:43:48:18
Speaker 2
But he's a crucial voice, in fact, a very important figure in even thinking about black power as a movement, as an idea, and involved in a US based organization, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, where Hamer would come into the civil rights movement. So when you see it through that lens, or you think about the fact that Malcolm X, that that his parents were Garvey ideas, as you brought up the example, his mother, from my hometown in Grenada.

00:43:48:18 - 00:44:12:24
Speaker 2
Right. And shockingly, I didn't even know that until I came to the U.S that in and of itself is surprising, but but such a powerful narrative to tell. Then, of course, it makes sense why, he is thinking globally, right, that he's tapped into organizations, like the Nation of Islam that has always thought about connections beyond U.S borders.

00:44:12:26 - 00:44:44:18
Speaker 2
In the book I talk about two journeys for truth and justice, in the 1940s and in how they are aligning themselves with activists who are trying to bring an end to apartheid in, in South Africa. So there are all of these examples where and let me also throw into to give a shout out to the work of Carol Anderson, who helps us see that groups like the NAACP that we sometimes think about in these narrow terms as U.S focus, they too were at the center of conversations that were global.

00:44:44:18 - 00:44:53:04
Speaker 2
Right? So it is it's always been deeply intertwined, and part of it is just shining the light on that.

00:44:53:06 - 00:44:55:09
Speaker 1
Question. Yes.

00:44:55:12 - 00:44:58:03
Speaker 4
Thank you so much for this. I teach a class on human.

00:44:58:03 - 00:44:58:21
Speaker 2
Rights and religious.

00:44:58:22 - 00:45:22:25
Speaker 4
Story, and, you cited, to guide, to engage some or all of these examples. But I was I'm kind of curious about process. Right. I do women's history as well. And it's sometimes really hard to like, who do you pick and how and how did. Yes, because they are all speaking to the same topic and within this same language.

00:45:22:25 - 00:45:31:01
Speaker 4
But some most of them, I'm assuming, didn't even know each other. And then they write them. And how do you string them together.

00:45:31:04 - 00:45:44:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that process is is so complicated. What I will say is that, when you're at least in my case, with an editor who said, do not go past the word count.

00:45:44:04 - 00:45:45:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:45:45:15 - 00:45:47:19
Speaker 2
When you have those clear limitations.

00:45:47:26 - 00:45:50:02
Speaker 1
And niceties, it makes it a little easy.

00:45:50:02 - 00:46:10:20
Speaker 2
It's like I just. I can't add one more. So. So I had to to to be mindful of that. I will say there are lots of women who I researched, gathered information, even drafted chapters. It's really in sections of chapters that I could not fit in. And they're just sitting in a Dropbox to be used one day in some capacity, maybe a journal article, you know, we'll see.

00:46:10:22 - 00:46:33:25
Speaker 2
But I you know, what I had to do? I think at some point I had to ask the question of how does it hold together? And in asking that question, there were times where I knew it made sense to insert certain women. If I realized, for example, that they were perhaps in the same circles or perhaps from the same community.

00:46:33:27 - 00:46:58:15
Speaker 2
And that would be a way to link the two stories. And so I could prioritize one woman because I knew that would link to another to help show continuity in some ways, but also I would I intentionally included a chapter on Pearl Sherrod, a working class black woman from Detroit who was connected to an organization. To your question earlier, she was connected to an organization called The Development of Our Own.

00:46:58:15 - 00:47:20:26
Speaker 2
They were interested in aphorism, solidarity. They were really just trying to get African-Americans to ally with Japan like they were very narrow in their focus. But that's and so for some people, why would you include her? Well, I really wanted to make sure that I didn't just write a book about black elite women or black middle class women, I wanted or celebrities.

00:47:20:28 - 00:47:46:08
Speaker 2
Exactly. And I do include some celebrities. Right. I talk about Lena Horne. Right. But I talk about Lena Horne's writings as opposed to focusing. Everyone's talking about her performance. That's why I talk about her writings. Because she has had an amazing column, and I grapple with, her ideas about human rights. So, so, so to the question, it was a lot of, I think, thinking strategically, but I'm also thinking about the reader.

00:47:46:11 - 00:48:06:08
Speaker 2
I'm thinking about the audience for the book, and I'm thinking about, you know, that's why I started out to be, well, as I'm thinking initially, I could start with a woman that no one knows. But actually, if I start with someone who people think they know, they'll assume that I'm just saying what they know until they realize, oh, wow, that's new, oh, that's new.

00:48:06:08 - 00:48:28:25
Speaker 2
And then Right. And so it was a lot of, I think, careful strategizing, towards the end of trying to figure out ways that it and then ways it would flow chronology, you know in terms of the chronology also thematic questions. I will say and I think everyone knows this when you're writing a book, it's it's not a solo exercise.

00:48:28:27 - 00:48:46:04
Speaker 2
So there are times where I would send multiple chapters to friends or, you know, colleagues and they would say, yeah, this isn't flowing, you know? Okay. So I had to say, well, why isn't it flowing? What's, you know, and they would say, well, you know, there's just something missing. I'm not seeing how you go from here to here.

00:48:46:06 - 00:49:09:19
Speaker 2
And then I would sit with that and think, oh, wait a minute, there's a woman who I could explain, who I could put in here to explain the bridge between the two. So? So it's definitely a long process, and it requires trusting other people to, to read, and to weigh in, and not, you know, getting in your feelings when someone says, yeah, just cut that chapter.

00:49:09:19 - 00:49:11:21
Speaker 2
So that happened too. Yeah.

00:49:11:23 - 00:49:15:28
Speaker 1
That's hard for historians. Very hard. Yeah. Yes.

00:49:16:00 - 00:49:36:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. Thank you both for, for the conversation. Right. It's one thing to have the work and to have you talk about the work that I have. The interlocutor really brings it alive, I believe and doctor by and thank you for the work itself. So I'm curious about your relationship to the arc. And my inquiry is not one about method or process craft.

00:49:36:14 - 00:50:06:28
Speaker 3
And so I'm thinking of Hartman and, and critical thinking. Well, I'm thinking of the historian's task to fill in the gaps in the sciences. I'm more interested in those moments when you encounter what I call the intimacy or the art of, those moments where, like, academic pursuit gives way to a kind of quiet sentiment, and you find yourself just there with them, and so can you speak to during those moments where, yeah, you got to lose the project and your discovery of some other things?

00:50:07:01 - 00:50:34:27
Speaker 2
Wow, that's such a great question. And I think this certainly happened. Okay. So I'll step back and say, in the process of doing the research, there are times where I've uncovered information that's fascinating information, sometimes information that will captivate me. But then I have to ask the question, do I need to include this in the book?

00:50:34:27 - 00:51:13:25
Speaker 2
Right. And there are times when the questions come because I'm thinking about I want to shed light on these women's personal lives, because I do think that it's important to know what's happening, in their personal lives as we understand their politics. But I also don't want to fall, into the trap of of just sharing sensational information that may be distractions or, you know, that ultimately deviate from the point I'm trying to make and is not to, to, to hide or protect people, but it's really just thinking through the ethics of, okay, if that's not useful, do I do I say it?

00:51:13:27 - 00:51:41:02
Speaker 2
And I've, I've had to spend time thinking through this point at various junctures. Even as as we're talking, there was a point in the book where I ended up including a brief reference to, two women who had a physical altercation because they were disagreeing with political strategy. And I was almost like, I don't know if I want to put in the book about black women fighting each other, you know, because I don't want someone to take it the wrong way, you know?

00:51:41:03 - 00:52:04:03
Speaker 2
You know, but but I ended up mentioning it because I, I also wanted to signal. Listen. Yes, it's true. People come together. Yes, it's true. People are forging these alliances. But we've got to understand that, that there are times with their attentions. It's just the nature of doing political work. And and especially when we think about in the current moment, we have a lot of disagreements.

00:52:04:03 - 00:52:30:26
Speaker 2
Right. And even whether you fall, you know, when we talk about progressive and I you know, even that, right? You find people who really agree on some core values but are at each other's throats because of a range of different reasons. And, and, and it's, you know, we might imagine that's new, but it is part and parcel, I think, of political and social movements that we we can sometimes, if we're not careful, get in our way.

00:52:30:26 - 00:52:58:22
Speaker 2
You know, we sort of can, can disagree about little things that feel huge, right. Depending on where we stand and what our needs and concerns are. So so I think going through the archive, there are times where you encounter things that, you know, we're not really meant for you to see or, you know, a personal letter between two individuals without a sense that, you know, one day some researcher who's a stranger in this space is reading.

00:52:58:22 - 00:53:13:07
Speaker 2
And and so what do I do with that? And, when do I include information? When am I careful to say, okay, well, this is not necessary to put in here, or maybe I can put in a footnote. So.

00:53:13:10 - 00:53:13:28
Speaker 1
Yes,

00:53:14:01 - 00:53:41:19
Speaker 2
Sometimes I've hidden some gems in the footnotes. So I, I've given you license to go searching, but, so, so yes, lots of times. And so your question to briefly, I'll say, reminds me of, this really extraordinary. I almost say, I don't, I should say otherworldly, but it felt otherworldly experience when I was in the archives, many years ago, while in the process of doing research for my first book.

00:53:41:21 - 00:54:00:19
Speaker 2
And I remember thinking, oh, I'm writing this history about this woman, and, and and I just can't believe people have written about her. I'm thinking this. And I come across a letter and, it's a letter from, you know, one of her allies to her, trying to console her because she's saying, like, my work has failed, like, all this is pointless.

00:54:00:19 - 00:54:21:00
Speaker 2
Nobody cares. And he said, but but one day, historians will tell your story. Yeah. That's like what? And so I just I'm like, I am the story, you know. No, you know, sometimes the archive, you know, and it felt like, wow. It was it just felt like it was fate or, you know, it just it was so remarkable.

00:54:21:02 - 00:54:33:14
Speaker 2
So there are moments when the archive will just, you know, and I know to your point, there are complexities of archival, you know, there are lots of silences and so on. But I do love doing archival work. Which is, of course, I'm a historian.

00:54:33:15 - 00:54:35:00
Speaker 1
Value. Right, right.

00:54:35:02 - 00:54:36:22
Speaker 2
Could have another way.

00:54:36:25 - 00:55:03:29
Speaker 1
That I want to say in closing again, thank you, Doctor Lang, for coming. Thank you for your very important work. I think about the movie that was, done on madam C.J. Walker. When we talk about sensationalism. Yeah. And, you know, if you think about that movie, how I don't know what percentage of it we could probably all agree that it was much, too much time spent on the A fighting and B.

00:55:04:02 - 00:55:04:13
Speaker 2
Fighting.

00:55:04:13 - 00:55:51:24
Speaker 1
Scene or something between Madam Paul. Yeah. And Adam C.J. Walker. Yeah. When I would have much rather, learned about her work with the I LDP. Yes. That's you know. Yeah. So, you know, that's what happened when men end up writing our stories. That's what happened when, Hollywood takes liberty to tell our stories. And I hope for those of you who are professors in this room, you encourage your students if they become filmmakers, you know, not just documentary filmmakers because they documented films, you know, lean more toward the truth, in some cases, in some cases.

00:55:51:26 - 00:56:21:12
Speaker 1
But but when we when we when we see these Netflix series coming out, you know, I hope that we encourage young people to be more true to the political challenge and achievements of women. And in a global from a global perspective, and not just leave us all in the South. And I think now my question about what is the global South?

00:56:21:15 - 00:56:36:19
Speaker 1
I may have just answered my own question. So thank you again. Thank you. Thank you.