Nicole Richie and Cleo Wade: How to Unlock Your Growth, Live Intentionally & Find Your Alignment
It's like every day. Yeah. This is just every day for us. It is kind of. It is.
Cleo Wade:It is our morning it's our morning phone call. Something some people may not know about Nicole and I is that we call h n we are not I actually am a phone person. I think I call, but you do not like to talk on the phone, but we talk on the phone pretty much every morning, between our kids' things. Yep. Right after school drop off, we jump on
Nicole Richie:the phone and we just talk about everything, everything from life to kids to what books we're reading to you know, it can it can I mean, when you're in writing mode, just, like, talking about that, and we just talk about life and books, which do blend all the
Cleo Wade:time? I think also something we do is okay. What some people alright. I have this theory about something that would be called gossip because I think that you can talk about something that happened and but you zoom out to the why of how this happens in our human experience. Yes.
Cleo Wade:So sometimes I'll call Nicole and be like, like, I'm not calling to talk about this person or thing or whatever, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of why does it rub me the wrong way in a in a greater experience of how we live in community or in the world. Why is this hap why like, how does this happen, or how do 2 people end up so perceiving something so differently or experiencing something so differently? Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I think I feel like I know I've been thinking about a lot lately, but I feel like we've I know we've talked about it and and there were some prepared questions here. And one of them had to do with resilience specific to the black experience.
Nicole Richie:Mhmm.
Cleo Wade:And I was thinking about that a lot lately because I have been kind of obsessed with the ways in which black community orients towards freedom. And if you are a people who are have, you know, constantly on the other side of freedom or away from freedom and you know you want it, there's so much resilience in that. Right? So there's, you know, we need I need a good book on my way to freedom. I need a good song on my way to freedom because in that hopeful journey that I know and feel belongs to me, that I know I feel ancestors fought for for me, therein lies resilience.
Cleo Wade:And I often think about how black resilience, especially, is so joyful. Yes. And even when it's lit and it's when it's the hard stuff. You know, you even feel like when you read Baldwin and he's talking about some of the really hard things, it's like, you feel joy that he was able to sit in France and write it. Yes.
Cleo Wade:Absolutely. Yes. I like that life for you. I'm I'm so happy for you even in the torment, the struggle, writing some of the, you know, things in these books that we have that our kids' kids' kids will use as advice for how to orient towards freedom, which
Nicole Richie:is kinda crazy, but it is. I read Giovanni's Room for the first time this year. Did I tell you that? No. And I read it for the first time in in October, and it is the most heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time simultaneously book that I've ever read in my life.
Nicole Richie:And I have read a many stories that revolve around the queer community. Mhmm. And that to me was just I don't know. I mean, the only way that I can really describe it is just so heartbreaking and beautiful. Like, that being it being the French setting just being so really feeling isolation and love simultaneously is I really, really think it's something that that's what separates Baldwin from every other.
Nicole Richie:It's, like, one why it's one of the most beautiful books ever. You know what's really crazy that the either the read reading for the first time, books you either thought you read or you
Cleo Wade:can't believe you didn't read, or reading books for what feel like the first time because you probably read them. Like, I when I was pregnant with Bayou, I was I pregnant with Bayou? No. I reread Beloved for the first time in, I don't know, since I think I read it in high school or something. And I mean, A, I'd already had another kid I'd had kids by then and was pregnant and I was like, well, I'm in an odd book tree while you're pregnant because Excuse me.
Cleo Wade:Are you okay? Yeah. It was a dark time. No, it wasn't. It was dim.
Cleo Wade:Mood lighting.
Nicole Richie:It was a mood lighting time.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. Yeah. It was. And yeah. Go ahead.
Cleo Wade:And I was like, god, I you know, when you you know, the the the very cool and sometimes sad and sometimes odd thing about getting older is you're you're further and further from girlhood in this kind of girlhood processing or boyhood or, you know, childhood processing of these ideas about life and the world, and and you're able to look at them with far more complexity or deeper empathy or a deeper compassion or a deeper attachment to children because you have them or whatever it is. And, I'm always kinda shook by how, you know, I I truly felt that I was reading that book for the first time as if I'd never I remember reading it and being like, god, I wish I could, you know, write like Toni Morrison. I just remember thinking that the writing was so beautiful, and it's so hard to read Toni Morrison because I think she speaks in her own language, and you kind of have to drop in. Like, to me, if you open a Toni book, it's like snails for the first probably 30 minutes, then you drop in, and then all of a sudden you're cruising through the book.
Cleo Wade:Like, I it takes me so long to all of a sudden be like, the pace of the world, the pace of the world, the pace that Toni Morrison demands you be at to understand what she's saying and feel her language. Yeah. And so that was its own crazy thing because maybe it was COVID. I can't remember. I I think so when I was reading it, but it's like to to drop in like that, when in a frenzied world, it was so meditative and beautiful and helpful, and I actually just couldn't believe the different feeling experience I had from the first time I read it.
Cleo Wade:It's almost like when you're speed reading when you're young, it's like you're noticing technique and you're noticing da da da and you're like, oh, that was awesome or that made me think this and you're all in your head and then I think as you leave girlhood, you read and you're really deeply in your heart because life feels more fragile. More horrible things start happening around you, you know, that reminds you of the fragility of our lives. And so many people that you are your favorite authors because you just were so admired them, they really become really close and intimate to you. And it's kinda that's, to me, kind of it's weird, I think, for a book to confront you with your own distance from being a child. Well, I think that that's what
Nicole Richie:I mean, that's the one of the most beautiful parts of reading. And I am a very big believer in in rereading books because, you know, you always bring so much of yourself to whatever you're reading. And so exactly like you're saying, reading Toni Morrison in high school when you are cued to understand technique and style and, you know, something that becomes some something of a task is a completely different reading experience than when you're actually choosing to involve and immerse yourself in Yeah. Into a story. And when you are reading, you know, age is a real gift.
Nicole Richie:Aging is such a gift when you are reading because you're able to look at it in a completely different way. You know? And, like, of course, you know, reading a book when you're in high school and these things you know, you're like, I don't I can't even comprehend what this what this loss is, what this struggle is. Or, like, the dates that it has to be read by this date, and it's like you know, I think a lot of those containers do not create connection for No. You in the book.
Nicole Richie:Yeah. To know
Cleo Wade:or the or I'm gonna get for No. You in the book
Nicole Richie:Yeah.
Cleo Wade:To know or the or I get why they kind
Nicole Richie:of you even be looking for yourself in it, period. You know? It's more of just
Cleo Wade:a task or a Yeah. You know, some sort of requirement. Or you get why in the summer times, it'd be like, okay, you're gonna have a reading contest. Who can read the most books? And all of a sudden you realize that you kind of like I would speed through some of the best books ever written.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. And then later, you're kind of like, wait. What? Well, it's very you
Nicole Richie:know, I've never been someone who can read in a group. I don't belong to any book club. I'm not, someone that wants to
Cleo Wade:read a book club.
Nicole Richie:I have tried at the request of other people. They're like, let's read this together. But reading is so personal and private to me, that I wouldn't even know what to say to someone. Like, if I'm reading a story, I'm I'm reading it and I'm I'm taking it in at that time, and then it's marinating in me. I mean, I've had books speak so powerful that I literally the next day, I'm like, I'm jetlagged.
Nicole Richie:I'm jetlagged from from traveling, and I need jet lagged. I'm jet lagged from from traveling, and I need to take it down. I have to just let it, you know, be in there. And I'm just like that that is it is not, my strength at all, which I don't think is a bad thing. You know?
Nicole Richie:For me, stories are very personal. I'm I'm taking it in, taking it in in a in and and it's all you know, it's really about where you are right now. You know? And and those those those parts that are hitting you and sticking with you and, like, you know, understanding a Giovanni's room level heartbreak Yeah. At 42 is very different than something that I could ever understand at 16, 17.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. Will you just put a book down? Like, if you don't like it, will you just say bye, or do you feel you have to finish it?
Nicole Richie:I don't feel you have to finish it. I don't. There's so much great literature out there that I just think you can just keep it moving, and I don't even count it as not reading something. Obviously, if you're 10 pages in and you decide to move on, then that's one thing. But if you're a 100 pages in and you're not connecting with the story, that's fine.
Nicole Richie:I also think that it can just not be the right time. Yeah. And you can come back to it later. Books really surprise you. You know, one of my favorite books is Homegoing by Yeah.
Nicole Richie:And I wasn't expecting it. And that was, like, in the summer. You know? Reading that level of I think it's I think it's 8 generations long story
Cleo Wade:Yeah.
Nicole Richie:In the summertime, like, while I'm sitting on a beach beach was something that I was not expecting at all, but it just grabbed me. Yes. I know.
Cleo Wade:I wouldn't say it's exactly a It's not a weird beach movie.
Nicole Richie:It is not. It is not. But it grabbed me. It took me. I had you know?
Nicole Richie:And, like, again, that is just that's the power of books. That's the power of stories is that you find them, but then they also find you. Do you think that this I wanna talk
Cleo Wade:a little bit about growth mindset because something I really love about you and I aspire towards is you're really intentional. And do you think that finding your way towards being so intentional where you're like, I will do this with this person. I will, you know, I will only do this with this person. I will I only feel comfortable. Like, you know, you're very it's intentional and specific.
Cleo Wade:But I think in that, there's a way that you're kind of, like, watering yourself for for growth. Mhmm. Do you associate being intentional with your own kind of growth, or is there
Nicole Richie:a way to kind of protect you where you are? Well, I think that part of the reason why I am so clear about what I wanna do is because I've I feel like I spent my twenties doing everything and saying yes Yeah. To everything. And, you know, there is a very clear feeling in my body when I know that I'm not doing something that is aligned with who I wanna be and the person that I wanna be and my my, I would say, goals for myself. But, you know, I don't it's not like I'm not the person that wakes up and is like, these are my goals.
Nicole Richie:I don't have them written down on a piece of paper, but I can feel it. Yeah. I know when something is not aligned with who I am. And I start my day out reading, and it really, I think, sets the tone for me to be in my body even though reading novels really is something that I enjoy so much because it takes me out of my life. I like to leave.
Nicole Richie:I like to leave town. I like to be immersed in someone else's story and leaving and also simultaneously really connecting to myself. So and that really sets the tone for everything else that I do within my day and my free time, and I can feel it. I can feel when I'm leaving my body. I can feel when a when a choice that I'm asked to make is just not something that's for me.
Nicole Richie:And, you know, so it makes it very easy for me to say, yes. I actually want to do this or Yeah. No. I don't. Or I wanna curate this time.
Nicole Richie:You know? I think, like, that's I think it's such a big part of your and my friendship is we're like, you know what would be so fun? And we just curate, yeah, we just curate our own time of, like, this is gonna feel good for us. This is gonna connect us to who we wanna be as readers, who we wanna be as people. That's how we landed here doing this.
Nicole Richie:True. You know? You know, a
Cleo Wade:few years ago, someone said to me that the opposite of self care is self betrayal. Yeah. And I remembered in that being like, oh, I get it. I actually understand the pathway to growth and because I do know that only things that are cared for grow. I do know that, like, you that plant can't grow unless the care you give it the care of sunlight and water.
Cleo Wade:Like I do know that. And I do know that we are more similar to a plant growing than a phone that's ringing.
Nicole Richie:Yes.
Cleo Wade:So I I always kind of think about, you know, where how do you access care and, but care feels so abstract, obviously, and so when I started to get that you could just, as long as you knew you were going away from betrayal, self betrayal, then you were going towards care, I realized that I was like, oh, if you're really intentional, in almost in like a cutthroat way, because like, you know me. I'm very
Nicole Richie:snip snip. You love a snip. Yes.
Cleo Wade:You do. You love a snip. So do I ever yes. We do. We will cut.
Nicole Richie:And going back to what we were first talking about when you were talking about gossip and what and the and the difference in gossip and working something out, the reason why you and I have those great morning phone conversations are because listen. We're talking about being intentional and doing things, you know, walking away from things that don't serve us, but it's not like that doesn't happen. You know? It's not like we don't find ourselves in those scenarios. Yeah.
Nicole Richie:So being able to find someone that does know you in a way that you just maybe has picked up on something, like, I think you or someone that can actually just remember something that I've probably said in passing that I don't even remember about just remember something that I've probably said in passing that I don't even remember about myself. And so if I'm in a scenario or I'm with people, or any sort of situation and I call you the next morning and I'm like, I need to work something out. Yeah. You know? I was here, and it really didn't make me feel good.
Nicole Richie:And why why didn't that happen? And, you know, or why why did that why did that happen? This happened, and, you know, I was feeling this way, and, you know, I'm not sure. Having someone who knows you and knows the person that you wanna be, being able to tell you as an outsider, let me tell you why this didn't work out for you. You put yourself in a scenario Yeah.
Nicole Richie:That was not serving you. Yeah. And I can tell you that as an outsider, I think sometimes you're too you're too in it. And so, like, working out things with somebody in a safe space who knows you and knows the person
Cleo Wade:in the life that you want to live is so important. Well, also what what you people will tell you is that you often get hijacked out of doing what's right for yourself. Yeah. Like, it's it's not it's a it's an opportunity comes. You think you should wanna do this.
Cleo Wade:There's some, you know, small part of your insecurities that just gets, you know, shot up into this, into this room or into this space or around these people or some nostalgia that makes you wanna do it. I mean, there's a million different ways that land you in a space where all of a sudden the person that you are that who's done all this work on themselves or is trying to be intentional or is da da da da da, is like, wait, hold on. What the hell am I doing here? Yeah. And I think that that's when having a friend who can hold you accountable is so helpful because they can be like, no.
Cleo Wade:Actually, the last time you went there, you said this about the same exact group of, you know, people thing whatever and you know, how many times do you need to keep going there to realize that it makes you uncomfortable or it's not right for you? Or one of the best pieces of advice you ever gave me recently, I actually have 2 things I always quote you on, but this one's newer, is you
Nicole Richie:Oh god.
Cleo Wade:Are you scared? Yeah. You're like, you said your friends are allowed to get on your nerves. Because what, no, because what happens is sometimes you're so annoyed with something that happened and the person is like just and it's not even maybe the person but with your own stuff, you're so annoyed and we tend to wanna raise the stakes all the time to be like, they're good or they're bad or this is wrong or this was right and there's so much injustice collecting in that and then all of a sudden, you know, if you're collecting injustice, you think you're God.
Nicole Richie:Yeah.
Cleo Wade:That that's just there's no other way around it. And so all of a sudden you're God because everyone's wrong or right or Yes. Whatever. And so then all of a sudden when your high and mighty feelings about yourself start to melt as they will always do and you kinda come down to Earth and realize you're not god and everyone's a person, you realize that, oh, they were on my nerves and that's actually what rattled me up. Yeah.
Cleo Wade:And
Nicole Richie:and that And the role that you play in that.
Cleo Wade:Yes. And the and that was such that kind of simple idea was so profound for me because I was like, yes. You have to, like even I remember saying that to Simon recently. For those of you who don't know Simon, he is my baby daddy. And I was like he's saying something to you, and I was just like I was like, I don't wanna talk.
Cleo Wade:And he's just like and then he's trying to make it something deeper. And I was like, it's actually not deep. You're just on my nerves. And that was liberating, like, to say because you and and it was relatable. Like, all of a sudden to him, he's like, oh, I
Nicole Richie:got it. I got it.
Cleo Wade:And then and then, like, a week later, it'd always be like, am I on your nerves right now? You're very Simon. I'm very Simon. Yes. And I was like, but it was such a it was a care tool.
Cleo Wade:Like, I was like, oh, like, acknowledging that you're on my nerves, you're not but that doesn't mean that I it's changing our relationship or it's changing our this or it's doing any of those things. Yeah. That was, like, kind of profound for me because I think a lot of the times I'm like, this was on my nerves and now I have all these decisions about what our relationship is or isn't or how they do or don't fundamentally understand me or not or whatever. And in that, that becomes kind of isolating. Yeah.
Cleo Wade:And then you're kind of every someone's a villain and someone's a hero and that dynamic's annoying. The hero villain game is very real. It's it's an
Nicole Richie:easy trap to fall into. Yeah. And going back to what you were saying about people always challenging you, you know, Sister Outsider is also one of my favorite books Yeah. Of essays. And and I don't remember which essay it was, but Audre Lorde said, and I will never forget it, that you will constantly, over and over, be challenged to leave yourself.
Nicole Richie:And that's actually not a bad thing. That is a part of life, and it carves you even deeper into who you are as a person. And that has something that is something that has stuck with me since I read it because I stopped looking at it as a bad thing. Yeah. I stopped walking in the world and feeling taken down every time I felt someone didn't see me or, like, I was being asked to do something that I didn't wanna do or maybe even fell in Yeah.
Nicole Richie:To being in a situation that wasn't serving me. Yeah. It ends up serving you because you go even more into yourself knowing that that is not right for you.
Cleo Wade:I remember doing a meditation one day and the person talking was saying, you know and if you've wandered, like, you know because obviously you're trying to meditate and all of a sudden it's like, oh, the groceries, the laundry, the and she's like, if your if your mind has wandered away from presents, know that homecoming is always available. And that was a that that ended up being a huge theme in in your love because, and I think the first poem of that book is called homecoming. And, it was because in this more abstract way and really practical ways, the idea that you are always allowed to come home to yourself was such a relief. Yes. And come home to certain physical places.
Cleo Wade:Like, you know, I am from New Orleans, and I come home all the time. And this idea that even knowing that that's a part of care is that, oh, you know what? I actually need to touch the soil where I'm from to kind of reintentionalize or reorient what I'm doing or where I'm going or whatever. And this idea that if I'm, you know, being high and mighty and judgy and whatever, that, like, there's something in me more beautiful that I can go home to Yeah. Than, like, kind of living in the little, like, ugly balloons that float up.
Nicole Richie:And it's always there inside of you. You can always you you write a lot about that. Yeah. And I believe that in the one of the first in the first page of your book, your first essay is, being lost. Yeah.
Nicole Richie:And that was so powerful to me, just understanding that you'll say it better than I do, but that being lost is a good thing because then you're able to find yourself.
Cleo Wade:Well and the pathway back to self is, you know I mean, it might be laborious and it might be, you know, muddy and grooling, but it's shimmery. That is the kind of magical thing is that if you if you can get back to yourself, that's where the that yourself is always there comes in. And there was this one part of Remember Love where and it's weird because I'm I'm not usually someone where I'm like, I've got a favorite page of a book, but I did have this one favorite page of the book because as I was writing this book, this one thing kept coming to me, which was, the voice of the guy in the old Motel 6 commercial where he'd where he'd be like, we'll leave the light on for you. And I was like, why do I keep thinking about this guy, this, like, this voice, this I was seeing every commercial because remember all the commercials were different and be like, we're in the car. And then it'd be like the motels and the distance and the thing.
Cleo Wade:And and it was and at the end, it was always like, you know, motel sex, we'll leave the light on. And this idea that you are kind of you know, this this kind of safe way in a dark highway is your life. Like, is that you get on these roads and things are so dark and they seem so scary and your the the light in the distance seems so faint. But believing that it's there because maybe there's some inner GPS or inner road map that said, I know that there's a Motel 6 that's just, like, 20 miles away. And, like, as you get closer, like, I think I see it in the distance, but for a while, you just have to believe it's there because, you know, the map the map's told you it was there.
Nicole Richie:Yeah.
Cleo Wade:And then to just say to yourself, we'll leave the light on for you Yeah. Became, like, my greatest meditation for this book because, you know, as you remember, even when this this book came out, when, you know, the kind of conflict in Israel and Palestine became so gigantic and it was really a tough time to wanna gather. And, I mean, it it came out within the week of October 7th that I just remember being like, it's really hard in when the world is so sad and it's so tough and it's so conflicting and violent and complicated and awful that to be like, and here's my book on love. Like, it was it was really a tough time. And I remember as I was on the tour because I was like, I wanted to be really responsible with how I gathered people and made them feel like every place was safe for however they felt about anything that they were going through or feeling.
Cleo Wade:But, you know, I remember at the time being like, oh my god. How am I gonna do this? Like, I was scared. I mean, you remember. I was like, I don't this is an this is not when when a war is breaking out in the world, you feel that, like, your little life of your little book feels like, how how could I try to talk about myself or something I made?
Cleo Wade:Yeah. And in that, you kind of forget that, like, art is what gets us through. And and I did kind of, like in the moment, I was like, oh my god. This is so hard. And I remember even being so thankful that, like, after doing the couple days of press, which I was, like, scared to do because, again, I was just like, how am I talking about this little book of poetry in the and and then it when in the context of what goes on in this in our huge, crazy world.
Cleo Wade:And I was so grateful that my kinda second tour stop or third tour stop was here with you. Yeah. And Diarra, I remember one of our close friends, like, surprised me on the plane and I cried because the tour was like I wanna cry now. The tour was so hard. Yes.
Cleo Wade:And I remember I was, like, saying that, like, line. I was like, I would do that I wrote that meditation. And I think that sometimes when you write, I think the types of things I write, I feel like most people don't know that most of what I write are things I practically use for myself. And so I'm like, oh, no. If that if that mantra is in the book, like, I've used the mantra.
Cleo Wade:Like Yeah. If you see the words, like, if you're grateful for where you are, respect the road that got you there, like, trust and believe. I say that to myself every single morning or if I ever have a moment of shame about my past self, my past lives, my past decisions, my past decisions, my past thoughts, all the things that exist Mhmm. Everywhere but the present moment. Yeah.
Cleo Wade:I say that mantra to kind of, like, reground myself.
Nicole Richie:Yes.
Cleo Wade:And so when I was like, oh my god. This like, I've gotta get up. I mean, I I mean, I think I cried after every single night of my tour because the weight of what people were just going through I mean, you remember, like, the of the people, the time we're going through in their own individual lives and then the greater energy. And I was like, oh my god. I'm crumbling.
Cleo Wade:Like, midway through in Texas, I was like, I can barely finish this tour. I think my last tour is up. I, like remember, Shiona, our friend, whose wife's stylist, was like, what the fuck are
Nicole Richie:you wearing?
Cleo Wade:Like, it it was insane. Like, I was like, my hair is out. I, like, literally have, like, something. It's, like, not working. I got it, like, Adventure Store.
Cleo Wade:I didn't have time to get it together because I'd, like, gotten the tour stop time mixed up, and it was much further from my hotel than I thought. Like Yeah. And I, like, got to the last one and I was like, I am barely making it. And I remember being like, god, I just wanna like, I wish more than anything there was a flight late enough in San Francisco to get me home to Los Angeles tonight because I just wanna, like, get in my bed with my kids because I'm so this is so intense. And I would say that mantra.
Cleo Wade:I'd be like like, the light's on for me. Like, I would take a breath, and I and I wrote it in the book. I was like, if you feel far from home, whatever your kind of heart space home is, put your hand on your chest, take a breath, and say, we'll leave the light on for you. Like and and I remember thinking, like and it took a while. Like, I even after the tour and, you know, then it was like the holidays and stuff, I remember being like, wow.
Cleo Wade:It took me a while to even, like, come to life after Yeah.
Nicole Richie:The experience. Also, separate from what was going on in the world, this is your most intimate book. Yes. And so, you know, I do wanna know from you what it is like just in general to have to I think, obviously, writing is so healing, and it is so personal and private. And this is just what I respect so much about writers.
Nicole Richie:You know, I am terrified to look back at my own words. And so writing it is one thing, and then by the time you write it to when it actually comes out, you've we we we change. Yeah. We change every day. So even if it's only by a few months and then, you know, forget that there is a complete world shift, just you as a as as a person, how is that to go and write that and then go and have to actually talk about it?
Nicole Richie:You know, I think one of the best things about the writing about your intimate feelings. Yeah. Talking about your intimate. I think one of
Cleo Wade:the greatest perks of the writing process is, you know, there's that initial dump, and that's just really therapeutic. That's why, like, the first draft is so disgusting because it's like, blah, and then the second draft is still kind of blah. Like, it's just like you're just kind of getting it out. And then by the end of it, when you kind of come in as your own editor to be like, okay. How do I make this good?
Cleo Wade:How do I make this something I wanna read? You become distant from who wrote it because you take time in between. So after you write something and it's if you love it or you've drafted it a few times and it's really great and then, you know, you take a few weeks away, you take a month away, and then you're like, okay. Let's go in here and make this something that you know, for me, I always write for my friends. And I always write books that I feel would be helpful to me given, like, the pace of my life or the pace of the world or what I feel like I have time for or don't.
Cleo Wade:You know, when I was writing Heart Talk, I remember sitting at a table, and this is almost 10 years ago, and being like, you know, who here is, feels like they don't have time to read a book front to back? And, like, everyone raised their hand. And then I was like, who feels like, when they start a new chapter, they look at the pages to see when the chapter ends so that so that they can kind of understand how much time they have or if they wanna keep going or put it down later or you know? Yeah. Me too.
Cleo Wade:Me too. And then I was like I'd like to know. Yeah. You gotta know. Yeah.
Cleo Wade:Because then you just know, you know, like, okay. Because I do try to stay away from my phone if I'm writing, but when you have kids, that is, that's tough to come come across. And so I and then I said, how many of you, if you see something you love in a book, you take a photo of it and send it to a friend? Yeah. Therein became the template of hard talk.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. Because I was like, okay. I want a book that someone could pick up at any page, and it reads well from front to back. I want something where someone doesn't have to feel hijacked out of the moment of reading to, like, count the chapters, so I intentionally didn't create chapters. Even I remember Lab, it it was in sections, and I felt that I put it in 4 parts because it needed to, like I needed I wanted to help people be like, and this is where you are.
Cleo Wade:Here's a landing spot. Like so there's a part on heartbreak. If you are in heartbreak, grief, relational heartbreak, friendship heartbreak, land here. Like, if you feel like you're lost, there is a part of this book called eventually we'll get there. Be in it however you wanna be in it.
Cleo Wade:It's not chapter. It's not title. There's no list. There's a table of content and which is actually very annoying for me on tour. So I'm always like, where is that?
Cleo Wade:And, you know, there's still this freedom to live in it how you want. But I remember with Heart Attack at the time, I was like, and I want it to be something that, like, is easy to visually share with your friend. And it's kinda crazy how have you intentionalized your books. They get used exactly like that. Like, it's not just that it was like, oh, a focus on the format and the ton of technology of the of of of how the book would be used.
Cleo Wade:But I remember being, you know, before pub publishing, like, this is how I hope people will use it. This is where I hope it will go when we pick the size. I was like, I really hope it'll be in your purse. I really hope it will be, and, like
Nicole Richie:On your night table just like just a you know, one of one of those, which it is. Yeah. Don't you find it to be one of the biggest acts of love when people send you something, a a a piece of writing?
Cleo Wade:Yes. I do. Totally do.
Nicole Richie:I find it's like it is a way of saying, I see you.
Cleo Wade:At the end, it's like it's kind of cool when that happens because you realize that love is, like, happening all the time in your subconscious about for the people you love. And so what I think when you're reading a book and all of a sudden you're like, I I sent this to you because it reminded me of you. Yeah. There's an there's a flip side of that, which is you're obsessed with somebody. So you're, like, constantly looking for them in the world.
Cleo Wade:Because I've I've definitely done that when I had, like, a horrible ex boyfriend that I, like, literally tortured me. And I'd be like, saw this thing, heard this song, like, and you're just desperate. Yep. So when it's not that, I think it's very, very loving non manipulative gesture. Yes.
Cleo Wade:But when it's actually like you're you actually you you realize that love is an abstract all the time Yeah. And it it kind of comes in through the ways in which you connect those you love to something right in front of you. Absolutely. But it's about somebody else and another thing.
Nicole Richie:Yeah. Yeah. It has nothing to do with you. Just saying something and saying, you know, saying to them, I thought of you when I when I read this.
Cleo Wade:What's cool about writing books is that a lot of the times as you're writing, you're, writing you know, you that writer has written it for someone they know. Yeah. And that and that kind of greater connective experience, I remember in hard talk, there's a poem that says, baby, you're the strongest flower that ever grew. Remember that when the weather changes. And the first time I ever wrote that was, to someone I'd just gotten off the phone with who was going through a harp like, a a horrible breakup, and they were just so depressed and couldn't get out of bed.
Cleo Wade:And it was, like, day 4 I had talked to her, and I called her. I was I remember being I was, like, on vacation or something. I remember being like, I feel so bad for her. Like, this is she's devastated. And I was painting at a little table, and I painted those words, and they ended up in my book.
Cleo Wade:But they were for somebody who was like, I how, like, how do you get off the floor when your heart is broken? Yes. And to me, resilience, which is kind of interesting because it's how we opened with this, is like is this kind of constant remembering that you we are so much more like a natural thing. Yes. So to me, when you're looking for resilience, like, think about a river, think about a flower, think about a plant, go on a walk, plant your feet in something because, like, these, like, 100 and 1000 year old trees that live and and nourish each other and have these crazy roots and branches are like, you know, these these incredible oak trees that line the streets of New Orleans that get knocked down by hurricanes and grow in some way or somebody comes and breaks a limb off or whatever it is or tries to pave concrete over it and the the the roots kind of break the concrete.
Cleo Wade:I mean, all of these none of these things are worried about if they make it or not. Yeah. They're like, I'm on this planet, and this is what I do. I'm here as a spa. Down, things rebuild.
Cleo Wade:That that is our flow. That is our self ness. Yeah. And whenever someone's struggling, I'm always like, okay. Plant a plant something in plant something in your yard.
Cleo Wade:Yep. Plant some get a pod and put something in it and watch something grow. Mhmm. Like, watch something turn from, like, the kind of nothingness of a seed and without worry, without fatigue, without wondering if it, you know, makes it or doesn't, this seed is going to reach for light, reach for the sun, and turn into something else. And Audre Lorde said that too.
Cleo Wade:She always said she said pain, doesn't stay pain forever. It sadness doesn't stay stay sadness forever. It turns into something else. Else. And that was like that's in Sister Outsider too.
Cleo Wade:It's like when I read that, I was like, that's it. Like, it it doesn't cut off. Your heart doesn't, you know, you don't you don't your heart if it breaks, it doesn't just like, oh, and then one day you're over it. There is no getting over it. You do not get over hard stuff.
Cleo Wade:You don't get over big losses. You literally allow for it to turn into something else. Yes. You allow for the loss, the grief to consistently change into other emotions, feelings, ways of thinking about the person, yourself, the life you live. You know, you like, the broken heart kind of comes together in a different shape and with different fragments and pieces and things, and that is that is actually getting through life.
Cleo Wade:That and and I think that when you if you keep trying to feel that, like, oh, you just don't feel something about it the next day. No. No. You're always gonna feel something about it.
Nicole Richie:Well, nothing in this in this world, in this universe simply goes away. I mean, we're looking at stars that have been that have their light no longer exists anymore. We're for 1000 of years, and we're still feeling that light and seeing that light now. Yeah. And that's so powerful to me because when you think about the fabric of the universe or your your words, just throwing words out there and thinking that once they leave your mouth, they're out in the world, and then they just disappear.
Nicole Richie:That's just not the way that the world works. You know? We there is a there is a fabric. Yeah. And so our words, even our thoughts, stay here.
Cleo Wade:Yeah.
Nicole Richie:They stay with us, and they are floating around. And it's very important and powerful, our words and our thoughts, because Yeah. They do sit with us, and they become those seeds. And they stay with us, and we grow into whatever whatever that is that that we grow into. It's also why
Cleo Wade:I love the way that so many amazing authors, specifically black authors, go into the world of, like, ghosts and, you know, because there's such an acknowledgment that we are you know, whether you're you're Toni Morrison or whether you're, you know, talking in in in in in sci fi or whatever it is where you're like it's it's kinda Octavia Butler, like, where you're like, there is this acknowledgment that this existence in and of itself, this this kind of burning star that is, like, nurturing our life, and we have no idea what it's gonna do, that fragility and that kind of magical experience of the way that, you know, matter is moving and and doing and how surreal it is to even be here. I love the way that's acknowledged in ghost stories, especially in black literature, because it's you know, something also about blackness, especially southern blackness, is it's it's all it's spooky. Yeah. You know, you're, I mean, everyone's got my whole family at least has, like, voodoo stories and ghost stories, and and there there was never, you know, I never really remember until I kinda maybe moved to a New York or California.
Cleo Wade:And and I know you have so many southern roots too. It's like, I never met people who weren't didn't believe in ghosts until I kinda moved to those places or they were just, like, looked at life in such a way of, like, well, matter. It is or it isn't. I was like, no. Everyone I know in New Orleans believes in ghosts and spirits and things.
Cleo Wade:So much so that when I would read certain books, and there was a ghost, that never felt it never felt weird.
Nicole Richie:Anything. Yeah.
Cleo Wade:It never felt weird. Terrified. Yeah. Like, I was just like, oh, yeah. I never, like or if something strange was happening, or you'll have your certain, you know, friends who don't have any of that in their background.
Cleo Wade:If something kind of spooky does happen and they have this, like I have friends who have, like, in their later forties been like, oh, I think I'm believing in, like, the spiritual or ghosts and whatever for the first time. And I'm like, how did you just get there?
Nicole Richie:How did you just get there? Yeah.
Cleo Wade:And I think that that's really interesting because there's something so ancestral. And, again, that's so deeply woven into black community that there's spirits and there's ghosts and there's there's and and how often do you hear the word ancestors? Because there's this idea that we stay surrounded by this this energy
Nicole Richie:This energy.
Cleo Wade:And there's this mysticism. And that, I think, for me at least, as a writer who tries to kind of exist, in this space of, like, kind of spiritual offering, that was the what made the easiest transition, into you know, because so many of my you know if you're writing about feelings, you're writing about the invisible. Yep. And I think for me, the kind of bridge to that was that, you know, I didn't have parents that brought me to church, but I, you know, lived above a voodoo shop on Decatur. Right.
Cleo Wade:And so there and so there was never a there was never a a version of our lives that were absent of the spiritual in any way. Yeah. And I think it or the kind of ghostly, magical it was it was an impourse. Like, of course, there's a witch somewhere or go somewhere. You're believing in a higher spirit somewhere or whatever it is.
Cleo Wade:And I think that this idea that we constantly are confronted with in community with invisible energy Yes. Was always like, oh, yeah. So I can write about the invisible. I can write about feelings, and I can write about how the invisible is so powerful. Like, how kind of because even if you're thinking about how you're working with your feelings to kind of alchemize a situation to make it healing for you rather than tragic for you Mhmm.
Cleo Wade:That is also invisible work. Yes. It is. Which I think is a was really kind of a profound understanding for me later to be like, yeah. Like, I think believing in ghosts helped me to write about feelings.
Cleo Wade:Wow. Yeah. Yes. So do you have a favorite ghost story or or or book with, like,
Nicole Richie:a ghost in it? With with with a ghost in it? I don't think so. I I I don't think so. It's not I'm I'm sure growing up in New Orleans, I'm sure you have just such a a a deeper Yeah.
Nicole Richie:Experience with that, you know, as far as, like, just that being a part of your everyday existence. I'm sure. Someone said
Cleo Wade:to me once, they were like, you know why there's so many ghosts in New Orleans? And I was like, why? And they're like, ghosts don't swim. And it was weird because, like, what an odd idea. Yes.
Cleo Wade:But it made sense. I was like, like, when something is weird but feels right, it's like when you try a food combination, you're like, surely that's gonna be back and disgusting. Yeah. And they were like, weird, but okay. Like, it was.
Cleo Wade:And that was the day I was like, oh, yeah. That that feels good.
Nicole Richie:I think I would ask you know, I always ask you about writing because I do see writing in my future one day. How is it writing in a time of isolation as opposed to when the world and life does not allow that in that in your life in that moment in time? As a you're a mom, you have a partner, you have a job, you have you know, we are constantly being at this point in 2024, we're constantly being pulled in 9 different directions at all times.
Cleo Wade:And we have so much community. I mean, not everyone. And I wish and pray for community for every person in the world because that is where true safety and healing is found. But I feel one of my greatest gratitudes is that communities that we have in our friends and and but in that, to be in in very valuable community is an is an investment from the self. Mhmm.
Cleo Wade:And so, most people who struggle to find community are also people who want to land in community, not invest in community. Yeah. And and it they they you don't realize that it is something that I mean, it is a garden. You can't It is. You can't just roll up and you can't and and expect to, like, pull a big carrot.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. It just doesn't happen if you didn't kinda nurture the soil.
Nicole Richie:Well, and something I notice about us as moms is, like, we have to go and create it. You know? We have to be Yeah. We said it when we were coming here. You know?
Nicole Richie:We were like, of course, this is the most fun. You know? And we're we're having the time. We Yeah. We landed.
Nicole Richie:We went straight to oyster. We went to get oysters. We do land
Cleo Wade:and go straight to lunch. Always. And wine. Oysters and wine always. And we laugh and we have fun
Nicole Richie:and, you know, we do all of it. But nurturing this friendship is not just for fun. I mean, it all it's all fun.
Cleo Wade:Yeah. It's it's it's the same labor as, a romantic relationship. It's labor. Like and it's a labor of love. And that is such a gift to be able to to have any labor of love in this life, however that manifests, whether it's in the creative arts or in community and relationship.
Cleo Wade:But it's it's still labor. It's saying, I'm thinking of you. I wanna plan something with you. And as I'm planning, I'm gonna consider what you need, what I need, what would work, what wouldn't. You know, so many relationships fall apart because they're not thoughtful.
Cleo Wade:Or if someone is intentionally creating blinders so that they can receive more than they're willing to give. And Yeah. And that's a real that's one of the biggest struggles to consistently confront in in friendship. Yeah. I think that as far as the question about writing in isolation is that, you know, writing is isolating no matter what.
Cleo Wade:And that's where I think most people struggle. You know? Like, Simon has I I never had this because I love alone time, and I do things so differently. I mean, you remember, like, my apartment in New York was, like, every wall was a different, like, kind of weird, moody color, and I had, like, dark red curtains and and that you know, then I did my basement kind of like that in in LA where it's like I have these kind of, like, moody rooms, and I've got incense and lavender and, like, you know, I have my own kind of witchy kind of I like like to kind of build the altar I create in. So for me, it's this really kind of, like, ugh.
Cleo Wade:Like, how do I just, like, get in a vibe where I can, like, hear and feel and channel something or myself or whatever it is or, like, hear the conversation I had with somebody where I felt like, god, that really did something or landed something for me. And so I think, for me, I enjoy that when I car grab the time and and you have to claim it. Like, anything that is a gift to the self, no one gives that to you.
Nicole Richie:No one gives that to you.
Cleo Wade:You have to take it. Yeah. And so
Nicole Richie:It's like the way we have to carve out this time Yeah. To come here and say to our families, guys, we we You gotta stop calling us.
Cleo Wade:You gotta stop calling us.
Nicole Richie:We have to go because Yeah. While we're having the best time, this is important for Yeah. Our souls. It's gonna make me a better mother. Yeah.
Nicole Richie:It's gonna make me a better person. Yeah. This is time that I am carving out to lean more into myself and be open to learning more, finding a new book today. Who knows what's going to happen?
Cleo Wade:And that's care. When you're looking for resilience. Resilience is found in a cared for person. If you're looking for care, notice when you feel self betrayal. Walk away from that.
Cleo Wade:Walk towards something that waters you, gives to you. In all of that is you loving yourself. Yes. So when you're experiencing resilience, you are actually claiming because, again, no one will give you anything that is for you, that is yours within. That that is it's only for you to kind of unearth within and be like, oh, I got this.
Cleo Wade:It's in here.
Nicole Richie:Yeah.
Cleo Wade:But if you're waiting for anyone to say, like, oh, here's the love you have. Here's the resilience of spirit you need. Here's the that that is not givable. That is only claimable through care, space, time that you take for yourself. And to know, I think, especially in blackness, that it is your birthright, and it is kind of how we lead and get to freedom, that is also our birth, right, and truly belongs to us.
Cleo Wade:You start to understand, okay. That's how I get up and get motivated towards hope, towards freedom, when I'm sitting in resilience and I know I'm in it because I know I'm, like, freaking holding on and I gotta, like, reach for the light because I feel I'm covered in dirt. You you you know your why, and that's the big motivator. It's like, I do this because freedom belongs to me. Hope towards freedom belongs to me.
Cleo Wade:And freedom is love. That love of self belongs to me. That love of my community belongs to me. And, that's my advice for today.
Nicole Richie:Yeah. And, you know, in speaking and going back to talking about the fabric of the universe Yeah. Even in times where that really feels like it's not an option, even saying to yourself, I want that. Yep. I want this.
Nicole Richie:That is alive within the space as well. And so it's important to say to yourself what you want and what you deserve
Cleo Wade:Yeah.
Nicole Richie:In order to accept it when it does
Cleo Wade:To let the invisible get get there with you. Away.
Nicole Richie:That is the seed. Yeah. Thank you, Nicole. I love you.
Cleo Wade:Love you so much.
Nicole Richie:I love being in
Cleo Wade:bookstores with you. You know that. I know. I'm about to go ham. No.
Nicole Richie:I am too.
